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our next presenter is Jennifer like from

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Stockton University in New Jersey I met

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Jennifer a couple of years ago at a

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conference and Gettysburg the conference

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was called exploring the extraordinary

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and as a consequence of her talk she

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ended up contributing an article to edge

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science you may want to check that out

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today's talk is not everyone gets

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machine elves the nature of dis

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incarnate entities and their

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interactions with DMT users hello so I'm

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talking today about DMT entities and

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their interactions with DMT users so it

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occurred to me that some people might

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need a little background before I get

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started with that topic DMT is a short

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abbreviation for a dimethyltryptamine

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which is a powerful hallucinogen that is

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involved in ayahuasca which is a drink

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used in South American shamanic

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practices it is also able to be

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synthesized separately and it can be

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injected or smoked and it is notable for

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several reasons but one of them is that

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it's extremely powerful short acting and

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tends to produce hallucinations that are

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quite vivid in and unique and at certain

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doses people feel like they have broken

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through to an alternate reality where

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they sometimes encounter entities which

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they sometimes experience as

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fundamentally separate existences not

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projections of their own psychological

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experience and sometimes those entities

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interact with them so the title of the

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talk is refers to Terence Mckenna who

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was a famous psychonaut and he sort of

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spoke about his own experiences with DMT

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and described

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his experiences with the entities as

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sort of prototypical II sometimes they

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appear as machine elves

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self-transforming

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machine elves that sometimes present as

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jeweled self dribbling basketballs so

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this just gives you an idea of the kind

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of variety of entities that people

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experience and and if you haven't used

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DMT then DMT users will tell you you

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cannot possibly understand so we should

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just start with that

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so Terence Mckenna suggested that anyone

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who uses DMT enough for long enough will

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eventually encounter the Machine Elves

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and the part of the motivation for this

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project was to evaluate actually what do

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people encounter what types of entities

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and what kinds of interactions do they

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have because there's actually very

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little research in terms of those

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questions there's some popular

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literature and there's certainly a lot

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online but there's no sort of systematic

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way to determine what kinds of entities

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people who used am T encounter and what

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kind of interactions they have so this

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is just a couple of examples to give you

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an idea of the variety of DMT entities

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so for example people way out of

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proportion to the rest of the scene in a

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bizarre alien spaceship a woman playing

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a wind instrument sitting on a gyroscope

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and so on and then the kinds of

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interactions there's a variety of

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interactions sometimes the entities are

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welcoming sometimes they're hostile

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sometimes there's sort of no interaction

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these are just some actual examples from

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the data that I used in my project to

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give you to illustrate the variety so in

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terms of what I actually did my interest

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was in getting a large sample of

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descriptions of DMT experiences and so I

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went of course to erowid org which if

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you don't know about it it's a major

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website that disseminates information

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regarding psychoactive drugs

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and along with lots of other information

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there are places for people to report

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their own experiences using different

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drugs so I sorted and collected this the

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stories of reports of people using DMT

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only the plenty of people use DMT along

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with other drugs but I didn't want to

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confuse the issue

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so I select adjust the cases that use

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DMT only over the last 10 years so from

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2006 through 2015 that ended up being

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149 trip reports sometimes information

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about the person's age or and gender

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were included and so of the people for

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whom I had that data of 90% of the

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sample was male almost 25 years old

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75% of the reports that I looked at

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included the description of at least one

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entity and 37% described more than one

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entity so I had a total of 108 and 80

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entity encounters to go on one of the

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first things that sort of became clear

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is that many people mentor mentioned the

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gender of the entities which was sort of

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a surprise to me that that so many had

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genders but 24% of the cases referred to

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the gender of the entity and so I looked

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at the proportion of male or female DMT

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users and the proportion of genders

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reported by the in terms of what the

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entities were male users were

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significantly more likely to report the

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gender of entities than females not

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quite sure what that means except that

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it might be an artifact of the fact an

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artifact of the fact that ninety percent

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of the users were male and so there was

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much higher likelihood but it's still

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statistically significant so I would

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need a larger sample to check that out

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and then the entities whose gender was

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specified were significantly more likely

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to be female than male so that is also

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interesting as at least in the sense

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that ayahuasca itself is sometimes

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conceived of as feed

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so they're my so it's just an open

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question what exactly that means but

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those were two findings related to

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gender in particular so the the main

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questions in terms of what are the

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categories of entities that emerged in

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the content analysis these are the

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relative proportions and I you know

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tried to condense the categories as

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efficiently as possible the largest

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category were entities that were

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fundamentally poorly defined or unclear

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and so that obviously could be for two

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reasons either the the person's

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experience of the entity was not yet

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clearly defined or they just didn't

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report it very clearly in their trip

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reports so there's two possible reasons

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why that might have occurred humanoid

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entities and this is in terms of the

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adjective or the second most common

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group divine beings aliens elves and

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fairies was number five animals and

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insects geometric entities or machines

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entities that were just voices just

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faces and then a miscellaneous category

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so in terms of frequency the poorly

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defined category was most frequent in

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terms of interactions there were a wide

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variety of interactions the most common

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one by far was entities showing teaching

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or guiding the users second most

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commonly there was no interaction

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hostility warmth or love welcomed or

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excitement reassurance or encouragement

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observation or neutrality play power and

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control sexual interactions interactions

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that were unclear the entity questioning

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the person the entity reminding the

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person and then another miscellaneous

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category so in terms of what are the

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entities doing with people they're

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primarily showing them teaching them and

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guiding them and in terms of their trip

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experience so just finally in terms of

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relating the type of entity with the

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type of interaction the chi-square

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analysis really

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the top the most five most frequent

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categories of entity in the five most

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frequent categories of interaction was

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insignificant there is not a pattern

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there that you might expect if you're

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thinking that the entities are some

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symbolic archetypal projection so that

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was insignificant perhaps there is an

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archetypal component in the sense that

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male users are more likely to experience

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female entities in the sense of being an

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anima representation but that's

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speculative as well certainly there was

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a wide variety of entities although not

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infinite there are a relatively small

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number of categories in terms of what

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could be experienced in a DMT trip and

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the wide variety of interactions weakens

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the analysis given the number of cases

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that I had to look at but what we can

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conclude is that the Machine elves are

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not actually the norm undefined entities

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are the norm or humanoid entities our

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second most common it's possible given

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the number of unclear entities that DMT

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trip experiences sort of evolved over

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the same course as hallucinations either

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in psychosis or influenced by other

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drugs that the hallucination commonly

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develops from a simple less coherent

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form into a more complex more coherent

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form so it might be that we just caught

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these people they described something

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that wasn't fully formed and then

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finally I think this area deserves more

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attention if only because there are

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obvious similarities and differences to

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the other types of entities that are

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experienced in other altered states of

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consciousness such as ayahuasca there

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are some differences the entity the

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discarnates experienced through

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mediumship discarnates or entities

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experienced during near-death

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experiences and also in alien abductions

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so I think there's more to find out here

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but either way this exploration of the

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DMT entities tells us something more

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thank you you got time for a couple of

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quick questions I have a question about

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your sample are there any data which

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have not relied on people to go

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self-report but instead of gone out

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trying to gather them not that I know of

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there's actually surprisingly little

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information and the data that exists is

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mostly of people who have used DMT and

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are reporting on their own experiences I

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have had a number of experience with

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ayahuasca and I've had a number of it

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you know these kinds of experiences and

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the common element or thread a lot of

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and what I've experienced is that there

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are kinds of like information or

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messages you know maybe about life or

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about what lessons may be what I need to

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know or something like that and I would

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I wouldn't say that there's a lot of

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correlation between the type of you know

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and you know let's say a lot of it just

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I think what my my mind is generating

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various kinds of like images but then

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there's an a deeper current of oh yeah

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this is maybe something I need to know

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now

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does this somehow fit into your to this

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exactly but I know what you're talking

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about which is that it seems like these

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experiences lead to something that sort

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of parallels mystical experiences that

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are achieved other ways also so that

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seems to me to be a separate topic

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although it might be related to the

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types of interaction in the sense that

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the showing guiding and teaching kind of

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interaction seems to help people have

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those kinds of realizations that I think

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you're describing hi excellent

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presentation in the lore and in some of

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the literature there's an argument that

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the kind of threshold dosage is required

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for the common common elements of the

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trip to converge what's your take on

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that well I had no information about

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dose you know people would put things

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down but it's not reliable but they

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certainly seemed to reach a particular

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threshold breakthrough and then usually

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after that begin to have the entity

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experience so it does seem like they're

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you know the goal at least for some

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users is to get to that point

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you break through and then the entities

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appear at least subjectively to exist in

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the altered reality that's on the other

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side of the breakthrough so it just

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seems to me it would be important to

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know about them and how they relate to

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the users in the world of lucid dreaming

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we sometimes and very frequently

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encounter figures that you're talking

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about so I'm wondering if we

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self-produce a chemical in our brain

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that is very similar the other thing run

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supplies me in your talk was the low

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percentage of geometries I would have

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expected it to be higher if the squares

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is shapes whatever those what I call the

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form constants which have popped up in

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the literature over the years

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particularly in his work with

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schizophrenics so I just wonder if you

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looked into that area well there's two

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things one is the DMT does occur

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naturally in the brain and is associated

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or at least speculatively with dreaming

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so it is possible that's another you

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know category that we could put on here

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in terms of the entities that are

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encountered in dreams you know being

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compared to the entities encountered in

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these other altered states so that's

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certainly reasonable and then second in

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terms of the geometry the geometric form

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constant experience seems to be a major

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part of the beginning of a DMT trip so I

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was just categorizing the entities which

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were primarily geometric but when lots

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of people describe the geometric

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experience of the domes or you know the

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fractals and then passing through that

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we're then some of the entities were

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still geometric or machine like some of

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them were not so it was certainly a

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major component pre entity experience

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thank you very much so when you're

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comparing this to other alter States you

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know the way you're phrasing it sounds

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as if the entity itself is what's

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changing but could it not also be that

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just the lucidity of the person that's

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affected in the state that they're in

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when they encounter the entity because

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you've you've basically taken a you know

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a chemical and you've altered

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chemistry and then your altering your

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own acidity when you're encountering

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vanity where as like a you know someone

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that had a projected like lucid

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out-of-body experience may have a

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slightly different experience with the

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same entity because of the lucidity

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state that they were in they enter that

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experience versus an NDE etc absolutely

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I mean I think that we can't locate

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where the similarities or differences

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are but for example in the alien

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abduction experience you know generally

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the aliens are not perceived necessarily

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as warm and loving and showing and

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teaching and guiding you know often they

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are perceived as frightening and it

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certainly could be

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the person's you know level of lucidity

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because they weren't expecting this

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because they didn't smoked DMT trying to

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have this experience that would

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definitely influence the nature of the

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interaction and I think this is just a

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beginning you know it would be nice to

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know what are the factors that cause

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different kinds of experiences with

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different kinds of entities in terms of

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both what's internal to the person who's

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having the experience and what might

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actually be external and the you know

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something that is contacted differently

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depending on the method of getting to

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the altered state

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thank you dr. Lyons